This is a very good idea actually and we're happy to do it. It may take me a day or two to do things however so just be patient!
So, lets start this thread to list the various equipment options to be able to analyze and tune the performance of the W112 engine without the additional expense of reflashing the ECU with a generic off-the-shelf program.
I hope that I'm not asking too much, but this should prevent a barage of redundant e-mails and phone calls asking the same questions...
Lloyd: In your spare time can you generate a start-to-finish laundry list with links to your website that will achieve this ? I will cross post this to the Crossfire Forum when completed... Give us the soup-to-nuts with 3 different variations (price and, or function) if possible... Let's work under the assumption that we have a laptop PC with either USB or serial ports using some flavor of Windows (sans Vista)... and this is going to be used on a vehicle that is operated with the Bosch Motronic 2.8 ECU.
OBDII interface & cables
Basic Data Logging Software
Wide Band 02 Sensors & cables
02 Sensor Data interface & cables
02 Sensor Data Logging Software
Piggyback AFM / TIMING interface & cables
AFM / TIMING Logging and Adjustment Software
+ anything else that you think would be necessary or helpful...
Cheers, I'm bet you wish I never stumbled across your company ...
This is a very good idea actually and we're happy to do it. It may take me a day or two to do things however so just be patient!
Patience is my middle name... Wait, that's not true... Going to now...
Let's break these posts up into sections and begin with the basics of OBD-II Scan Tools and speak to some of the differences, functionality and benefits.
The term "OBD-II" gets used in several different ways, some accurate and some just as a vague term for anything that connects to that port under the dash. Technically, the term refers to a very specific set of functions and a national standard which was first adopted by the California Air Resources Board (CARB) and since modified and made US Federal Law and as regulated by the EPA. Overview of OBD-II here
The term OBD-II refers specifically to a set of standardized methods, protocols, hardware and data structure for certain very specific data required to be monitored, collected and reported regarding the emissions system of a modern passenger car* as designed for sale within the United States.
* On Board Diagnostic regulations also exist for light pick ups & heavy duty trucks, but there are differences which don't really belong in our thread about tuning the CrossfireOk, so I'm getting a bit tiresome here and should abbreviate... the point I wanted to set the context for is that there are several different classes of hardware and associated software which are referred to as "OBD-II" and in the context of "tuning" we will need to be clear about each. Here are my own personal categories and some examples of each:
(send me a note if you have a category to add to this list)
- "Generic" OBD-II Scan Tools
- "Generic" OBD-II Scan Tools with Enhanced Codes
- "Generic" OBD-II Scan Tools with Enhanced Functionality
- Commercial OBD Scan Tools
- SAE J2534 Pass-Thru Devices
- Specialized Tools which utilize the OBD port to access a vehicle computer
Ok, so beginning with Generic OBD-II Scan Tools. This is primarily a discussion of hardware, but will overlap with items 2 & 3 from the list above because "Enhanced Codes" and "Enhanced Functionality" is typically only a difference in the software used with the same piece of hardware.
The hardware we stock that I will put in this "Generic" group first are:
Several of the tools listed above are in fact capable of MUCH more than just Generic OBD-II Scanning, but in their base form this is what they do and the additional features are a matter of adding software to your laptop or PC.
- Elm327 based hardware
- T16 Based Hardware
- Multi-Function + Generic OBD-II Scan Tools
- CJ4 Scan Tool, Lab Scope & Pass-Thru (not J2534)
- Mongoose for GM J2534 Pass-Thru
- Mongoose for Asian & European J2534 Pass-Thru
- Mongoose for Ford J2534 Pass-Thru
- Mongoose for Ford with FEPS J2534 Pass-Thru
- Mongoose for Chrysler J2534 Pass-Thru (not yet released)
- CarDAQ-plus J2534 Pass-Thru
- ScanGauge II - 3 In One
With basic and usually free software, all of these tools will do a nice job of scanning the OBD data in your car, reporting on any trouble codes present and will allow you to reset the check engine light.
Working from the same list, but subsetting on "Generic" OBD-II Scan Tools with Enhanced Codes. Enhanced Codes are additional codes added by the vehicle manufacturer
The Auterra Dyno Scan models are shipped with software which will surface "most" of the Enhanced Powertrain codes for "most" of the most popular vehicles (although NOT including the Crossfire ). List is here for the supported enhanced codes (open and scroll down)
In addition to the generic OBD-II functionality, the CJ4 Scan Tool & labscope ships with and enhanced data package for Chrysler vehicles through 2002 and has additional add on modules which can add both OBD-I and Enhanced data for Nissan and Volkswagon.
The ScanGaugeII is actually an in-car mounted digital gauge which displays all the generic OBD-II data and can surface "some" of the enhanced powertrain data.
The J2534 Pass-Thru tools can typically be used for reflashing the car with OEM Calibrations if you add the OEM software (available by subscription from each OEM)
Additional functionality such as Dyno estimation algorithms, 0-60 time, 1/4 mile time and data logging can be added to any of the Elm327 based tools above with the use of PCMSCAN software by Palmer Performance Engineering
PCMSCAN can also bring in additional channels of data from an AEM 30-4100 UEGO Gauge or Innovate Motorsports wideband AFR meter. This is convenient to merge both AFR data and OBD data into a single log file for analysis and diagnostics.
It should be noted here that the speed of the datastream from an OBD-II system is not always ideal for real time datalogging of quickly changing parameters (like rpm) as the OBD system gives priority to managing the engine functions and provides sample refresh rates that are something on the order of 2-5 seconds when monitoring multiple parameters. By restricting the number of parameters you're monitoring, the refresh can be squeezd down to 2-4 samples per second, but this is still relatively 'jerky' when viewing the tach gauge in PCMSCAN. These are limits of the OBD system and not a weakness in the hardware or software.
Ok... there's the nickle tour of OBD-II diagnostics & datalogging. On to another topic next.
Discussion of "basic datalogging software" will need to be divided into two types of data:
As badly as we need all the data in one application, merged and synchronized into one log file, there are very definite limits on our ability to do so.
- The Data Available from the OBD port
- All other Data
Beginning with data available through the OBD port, both PCMSCAN and the Auterra Dyno-Scan software will provide monitoring and datalogging of OBD-II Generic Data and the Dyno-Scan software will also pick up some of the OEM enhanced sensor data for most Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota & Lexus models (although I don't think the Crossfire is included under "Chrysler" for these discussions).
***** I'll be adding to this post with some of the "All other Data" and some of the limited available tools for merging data from disparate sources. For a quick teaser of more advanced datalogging, have a look at the Innovate Motorsports "Modular Tuning System"
You are a wealth of knowledge, and your efforts are greatly appreciated
As you know, I have the ELM5 interface and PCMSCAN software, they were a good starting point for evaluating the operating condition of the engine. And both were very simple to install / operate. The PCMSCAN software is a terrific tool...
ELM5 & PCMSCAN combo http://www.tunertools.com/proddetail...E%2DELM5%2DUSB ($209.95)
Now, in order to start optimizing the engine performance on the Crossfire I will need to purchase a few additional things from TunerTools.
WIDEBAND 02 sensor and software for my dual exhaust set-up:
Or, if I had a stock Crossfire exhaust system:
FUEL / IGNITION CONTROLLER
Will I need any specialized wiring harness' to interface with the injectors / PCM / ECU, or my PC laptop ?
This is what I find interesting with this whole piggyback tuning system, If I owned a Crossfire / SLK320 / SLK32 with a stock 2-1 exhaust, I could have the ability to do my own repeated custom tuning for about the same price of a "one-size-fits-all" ECU reflash from PowerChip or Upsolute. And I wouldn't run the risk of ruining my OEM ECU program.
Why don't all the performance enthusiasts use this system instead of the "one-time" "off-the-shelf" ECU reflash ?
FYI: I reposted your comments over at the Crossfire Forum... Here's a link http://www.crossfireforum.org/forum/...ad.php?t=16666
"No" for the first question and "possibly" for the other - the cable and software are included with the Innovate Motorsports Modular Tuning components. With the AEM Fuel / Air Controller, there will likely be additional secondary wiring harnesses necessary and/or a bit of custom wiring to tap all the appropriate sensors. The AEM unit is brand new and I suspect that for the next few months, custom wiring will be only option as not all the secondary harness are available yet.Will I need any specialized wiring harness' to interface with the injectors / PCM / ECU, or my PC laptop ?
Well... like many things, it's a little more complex than it seems at first. Tools like the AEM Fuel / Air Controller and similar devices like the GReddy eManage Ultimate and Apexi (aka "piggy back" systems) work well across the widest variety of cars because of the fact that you do not need access into the ECU nor do you need to edit anything in the stock programming. They work by intercepting key incoming and outgoing signals and make the necessary adjustments 'outside the box'. Some of the drawbacks of a piggy back system are:Why don't all the performance enthusiasts use this system instead of the "one-time" "off-the-shelf" ECU reflash ?
- They also leave you with a fairly substantial number of additional connections, non-stock wiring and can be a task to install.
- They nearly all require some custom tuning for each car as the computer in the piggy back simply does not know what you've done and needs to be instructed to get a precise tune.
- Point well taken, and wiring diagrams can be confusing to many people. And if there are not any "plug n play" connectors, many people would be reluctant to take-on such a task.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you ran real time data logs via, let's say PCMSCAN and they showed certain lean, or rich conditions and timing parameters, can you not use the piggyback software to adjust those conditions / settings in real time ?
Granted, most tunes should be conducted with simultaneous dyno runs, but in my specific circumstance, and what I have discovered from other Crossfire owners who have logged AFR / TIMING data, these cars are programmed to run in a very lean condition 14.7:1 and the ECU is "hell-bent" to retard timing and reduce fuel to maintain a stoichiometric state. We both know that this is only used to achieve a low emissions profile which is more pronounced in this engine with it's 2 spark-plug per cylinder configuration that exacerbates the high AFR... That being said, overriding the system to richen the mixture and advance timing to achieve an AFR somewhere in the range of 13:1 under full load should help realize a notable HP increase. Do you agree ?
Yes, and this is what you should do to fine tune things once you get it running good enough to get to the track. My point with installing the piggy back is that on initial installation, it may not even start without some direct assistance and when it does, the settings can be so far off that you'll not want to leave the garage until you've got things roughed in a bit.Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you ran real time data logs via, let's say PCMSCAN and they showed certain lean, or rich conditions and timing parameters, can you not use the piggyback software to adjust those conditions / settings in real time ?
Bottom line is this is not plug and play in most custom applications. If you happen to have one of the very common cars that the particular piggy back is designed for and you have the initial maps in the software, you'll be ok. But in other instances, the initial set up is best left to the professional, at least enough to get the car track ready.
Abso-friggin-lutely! That's the planThat being said, overriding the system to richen the mixture and advance timing to achieve an AFR somewhere in the range of 13:1 under full load should help realize a notable HP increase. Do you agree ?